Message from Emmanuel Navon:

I am stepping down from my position as CEO of ELNET-Israel to establish a new institute with ELNET-France. This Institute will bring together the best minds to build a post-October 7 foreign policy strategy for Israel, to defend the values of Western civilization, and to produce top-quality research for ELNET and for decision-makers in Israel and in Europe.

October 7 has changed Israel and the Jewish people forever. ELNET rose to the challenge by bringing solidarity missions to Israel as early as October 9, 2023. At ELNET-Israel we geared up public diplomacy efforts by organizing solidarity missions to the South, by producing impactful videos, by conveying documented information on social media, and by briefing European ambassadors on a regular basis.

Running ELNET’s Israel office for two years has been a privilege, but my added value lies elsewhere. The time-consuming tasks of daily management impede my academic output. I was approached by ELNET for my scholarship, and it is clear after two years in a management position that this scholarship would be of better use in a research institute that will support ELNET’s work.

I am thankful to ELNET for entrusting me with the undertaking of this ambitious project, and for giving me the opportunity to lead the Israel office for the past two years. The entire team of ELNET-Israel can take pride in our office’s achievements. Allow me to list some.

Among our assignments was to fundraise $300,000 a year for ELNET-Israel. We surpassed this target both in 2023 and in 2024. Interpersonal relations in the office improved and our budget became more transparent. I took part, with my team, in the organization of dozens of delegations and strategic dialogues and addressed them all (except for two delegations this month).

We initiated a quarterly briefing with European ambassadors; we started this monthly newsletter; we improved the structure and the design of ELNET’s website; we increased our social media visibility and influence; we started viral videos to defend Israel in Europe following October 7; We published op-eds and policy papers to defend Israel and to underline Israel’s strategic value for Europe; We built a Board of Trustees composed of large donors, and a Board of Advisors made up of respected academics and public figures; We re-organized ELNET’s “Dropbox” (online shared documents) and made it more user-friendly; and we have transferred ELNET-Israel’s official address from Ramat-Gan to Jerusalem.

None of the above achievements would have been possible without the professionalism and dedication of ELNET-Israel’s exceptional team.

Yossi Abarbanel and Jill Willer do an outstanding job putting together high-quality programs for ELNET’s delegations. Benjamin Touati has skillfully and successfully taken over the daily management of the office as COO. Pascaline Wagemans masterfully organizes top-level strategic dialogues together with Dalmione Shkodra, who has been a wonderful addition to our team. Yasmin Burk manages our finances in the most rigorous and professional manner. Ben Rosemblaum has improved our communication thanks to his creativity and hard work. The office would not function without Anna Kaufman, whose good nature and dedication are essential to our daily operations. Our intern Yaniv Cohen is always there to give a hand when the team is overwhelmed. I thank each and every one of them. Working with this exceptional team has been a privilege.

I also wish to thank our Chairman, Sam Pinto, for improving the work of our office and for bringing needed governance changes to the global organization. I am deeply grateful to Arie Bensemhoun for his commitment to the truth, to justice, to decency, and to the good of the organization; and I thank him for agreeing to establish the new institute within ELNET-France. My heartfelt thanks also go to ELNET-Israel’s Board of Trustees, whose members have brought to the organization not only financial support but also guidance. Thank you as well to the other donors of ELNET-Israel and to FELNET, whose generosity and commitment make ELNET’s work possible.

Conveying the right message to the right people is important, but it is not enough. In the post-October 7 world, we need the best minds to provide decision makers with top-quality research and proposals. This is what the new institute intends to do.

This is a new beginning for me personally and for ELNET, which I undertake with confidence and determination, inspired more than ever by Isaiah’s pledge: “For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet, till her vindication shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch” (Isaiah 62:1).

Message from ELNET-Israel’s Board of Trustees:

We, the members of ELNET-Israel’s Board of Trustees, wish to express our deep appreciation to Dr. Emmanuel Navon as he leaves his position as our CEO to pursue new initiatives in public diplomacy. Under his direction, ELNET-Israel expanded its various programs significantly, raising its profile and prestige as a major voice in European-Israeli affairs and facilitator of improved diplomatic relations. Dr. Navon’s tenure is marked by academic excellence and exceptional diplomatic engagement.

 

Together with the rest of the ELNET professional staff, in particular COO Benjamin Touati, Deputy Executive Director Yossi Abravanel, Director of the Forum of Strategic Dialogue Pascaline Wagemans, Delegations Program Manager Jill Wyler, and others (too many to mention all here), he and the team have hosted hundreds of European parliamentarians, dozens of foreign government ministers and military representatives, ambassadors, policymakers, dignitaries and media representatives, engaging in dialogue and on-site fact-finding, thereby strengthening Israel’s relations with the respective countries in a particularly difficult time.

 

ELNET-Israel’s successes in public diplomacy and partnership-building (strategic, economic and other), in co-ordination with ELNET’s international network of offices, have been acknowledged by both senior Israeli and European government representatives. Thank you, Dr. Navon and team, for your high caliber professionalism and tireless dedication. May you go from strength to strength.

President Trump’s unorthodox diplomacy constitutes a challenge for Israel’s relations with Europe. But it might also create an opportunity

The Oval Office fallout between Presidents Trump and Zelensky –followed by horrified reactions from European leaders– has confirmed that we have reached a crosspoint where the US and the EU are at odds over the wars that are still raging in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East. The grim mood in Europe was summarized thus by The Economist a week before the White House drama: “The past week has been the bleakest in Europe since the fall of the Iron Curtain. Ukraine is being sold out, Russia is being rehabilitated and, under Donald Trump, America can no longer be counted on to come to Europe’s aid in wartime.”

This geopolitical angst constitutes a challenge for Israel’s foreign policy. In a choice between the United States and Europe, Israel will always choose the United States. But this understandable choice sometimes comes at a price, as exemplified by Israel’s latest vote at the UN General Assembly. On February 24, Israel voted, together with a small group of countries composed mostly of pro-Russian autocracies, against a resolution that condemned Russia for the war in Ukraine. While Israel’s vote was motivated by the choice to align with the Trump administration (which recently lifted restrictions on military supplies to Israel), it made the life of Israel’s advocates harder.

The widening gap between the United States and Europe admittedly complicates Israeli diplomacy. But it may also create a new opportunity.

The above-quoted editorial from The Economist claims that US Vice-President J.D. Vance “ridiculed Europe as decadent and undemocratic” in his speech at the Munich Conference on February 14. Did he? Vance questioned whether America and Europe still share the same values in light of the cancellation of an election in Romania and in light of what Vance described as an infringement upon the religious freedom of European Christians. He questioned the wisdom of enabling mass migration to Europe while denigrating voters who oppose this policy. Essentially, Vance advised Europeans to be more conservative if they want America to have their back.

Hence the diplomatic opportunity for Israel in Europe in the coming four years. There are currently six conservative European governments that are mostly sympathetic to Vance’s message and that are supportive of Israel: Italy, the Czech Republic, Sweden, Finland, Hungary, and Croatia. The conservative CSU/CDU party will form the next coalition government in Germany. Opinion polls suggest that a conservative majority will likely emerge from Norway’s upcoming election in September 2025. France and Spain are going to the polls in 2027, and in both countries staunchly conservative parties (the National Rally and Vox, respectively) are expected to be in government. Precisely because European parties with Trumpian sympathies and pro-Israel credentials are on the rise in Europe, Israel’s foreign ministry has initiated a discreet dialogue with some of them.

Which brings me back to J.D. Vance and to The Economist. In his Munich speech, Vance said the following: “I’ve heard a lot about what you need to defend yourselves from, and, of course, that’s important. But what has seemed a little bit less clear to me and certainly, I think, to many of the citizens of Europe, is what exactly it is that you’re defending yourselves for. What is the positive vision that animates this shared security compact that we all believe is so important?” This is a question to which Israel has a clear answer: the core values of the Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian civilization, of which Israel is a pillar. It turns out that more and more European voters agree with that answer.

And it also turns out that Israel has what to offer to Europe. The Economist wrote this week that “Three years after Russia’s invasion Europe has not raised military spending nearly enough. It is trapped in an obsolete worldview of multilateral treaties and shared values … Europe’s urgent task is to relearn how to acquire and wield power … Defense spending will need to rise to the 4-5% of GDP that was normal during the cold war.” Europe is potentially an expanding market for Israel’s defense industry. If we wish to strengthen relations between Israel and Europe in the coming four years, we need to understand how Israel may turn to its advantage the current US-EU rift, and to fully leverage the evolution of European politics.

Papa,

Nous savons tous que ce moment arrive un jour, mais quand il arrive c’est toujours trop tôt.

Tout le monde ici ne t’a pas connu. Que ceux qui ne t’on pas connu sachent que tu étais un homme profondément responsable et généreux, un homme de bon sens, qui savait toujours approcher la vie avec humour. Je n’aurais jamais pu accomplir ce que j’ai accompli sans ton soutien et ta générosité.

Après le décès de maman –alors que Valérie, Aurore et moi étions encore jeunes– tu as pris sur toi, avec courage et responsabilité, de nous élever seul.

Il y a deux ans, presque jour pour jour, ton meilleur ami Gérard Latortue nous quittait. Vous êtes maintenant réunis, vous racontant vos blagues d’antan. Gérard était un diplomate haïtien qui devint premier ministre de son pays. Vous vous étiez rencontrés à Paris alors que vous étiez tous deux étudiants. Gérard avait posté sur une annonce à la cité universitaire qu’il cherchait un partenaire pour voyager en Scandinavie. Au téléphone, vous vous étiez mis d’accord pour voyager ensemble.

Mais c’était la France de la fin des années 50, et Gérard voulait que tu saches quelque chose que tu ne pouvais pas voir au téléphone. « Voilà » te dit-il « je suis Noir. » Ce à quoi tu répondis du tac-au-tac : « Ça tombe bien, je suis Juif. » Et vous devinrent les meilleurs amis du monde.

C’était ça Papa : le bon sens, l’humour, la fidélité.

Une fidélité à la famille, aux amis, et à la tradition juive.

Un ami d’enfance à toi, Charley Pietri, nous avait écrit à Sima et à moi un poème pour notre mariage, qui disait entre autres : « De Meknès à Jérusalem, en passant par Paris : que de feuilles fanées, et que de chemin parcouru. » Ce chemin s’achève pour toi en Israël, mais il continue à travers tes enfants et petits-enfants. Je sais à quel point tu étais fier d’avoir des petits-enfants israéliens, même si l’un d’entre eux commit l’impair, dans sa tendre enfance, de nommer un croissant « bourekas. »

Et je sais que tu es d’autant plus fier d’eux aujourd’hui qu’ils protègent notre pays et notre peuple.

Nous sommes tous fiers de toi. Fier du père et du grand-père que tu as été. Nous ne serions pas ce que nous sommes sans toi.

Tous les membres de la famille et tous les amis qui m’ont écrit après avoir appris la nouvelle de ton départ se souviennent de ton amour de la vie, de ta générosité, de ton sens de l’humour, de ton attachement à la famille, et de ton affection pour les enfants.

Je veux dire merci à Ruth, pour l’amour et pour l’attention qu’elle t’a donné. Ruth a été une עזר כנגדו, un soutien à tes côtés, et une אשת חיל, une femme de valeur, qui t’a accompagné et soutenu pendant votre mariage et dans tes derniers moments.

Papa, les gens t’appelaient Sam. Ton prénom hébraïque est Shlomo. A la bar-mitzvah d’Ethan, dont le deuxième nom est Shlomo, tu avais cité le Livre de l’Ecclésiaste (Kohelet) attribué au Roi Salomon. La parasha d’Ethan est « Yitro », qui est la parasha de cette semaine.

Le livre de Kohelet a été canonisé bien qu’il soit déroutant par ses contradictions et par ses mots durs sur la vie. Mais c’est un livre qui nous rappelle cette évidence : « Il y a un temps pour tout sous le ciel. Un temps pour naître, et un temps pour mourir … Un temps pour pleurer, et un temps pour rire … Un temps pour la guerre, et un temps pour la paix. »  Aujourd’hui nous pleurons, mais nous rirons de nouveau, comme tu nous faisais rire avec tes bonnes blagues –à part celles qui commençaient en Français et qui se terminaient en Arabe, et que nous ne pouvions comprendre.

Le Livre de Kohelet, c’est également la leçon du vieux sage revenu de tout. Shlomo conclut son livre compliqué avec un message simple : « Au bout du compte, et après avoir tout dit, craint Dieu et observe ses commandements, car c’est là tout l’homme. »

Le bon sens de Shlomo. Le bon sens qui était le tien.

Repose en paix, Papa. Ta dernière demeure est en Terre d’Israël, entouré de gens qui t’aiment et qui t’admirent, de petits-enfants qui t’adorent et qui nous remplissent de fierté. C’est l’ultime rétribution de l’homme juste que tu as été.

Emmanuel Navon (Mréjen), 10 février 2025

ENGLISH TRANSLATION:

Papa,

We all know that this moment comes one day, but when it does it’s always too soon.

Not everyone here knew you. They should know that you were a very responsible and generous man, a man of common sense, who always approached life with humor. I could never have accomplished what I accomplished without your support and generosity.

After Mom passed away—when Valérie, Aurore, and I were still young—you took it upon yourself, with courage and responsibility, to raise us alone.

Two years ago, your best friend Gérard Latortue left us. You are now reunited, telling each other your old jokes. Gérard was a Haitian diplomat who became prime minister of his country. You had met in Paris, where both of you were students. Gérard had posted an ad on campus that he was looking for a partner to travel to Scandinavia. Over the phone, the two of you had agreed to travel together.

But this was France in the late 1950s, and Gérard wanted you to know something you couldn’t see on the phone. “Well,” he said, “I’m black.” To which you replied immediately: “That’s great: I’m Jewish.” And you became the best of friends.

That was Papa: common sense, humor, loyalty.

A loyalty to family, to friends, and to Jewish tradition.

A childhood friend of yours, Charley Pietri, had written a poem to Sima and I for our wedding, which said among other things: “From Meknes to Jerusalem, via Paris: so many faded leaves, but what a journey.”  This journey ends for you in Israel, but it continues through your children and grandchildren. I know how proud you were to have Israeli grandchildren, even if one of them made the faux pas, as a young child, of calling a croissant “bourekas.”

And I know that you are even more proud of them today that they protect our country and our people.

We are all proud of you. Proud of the father and grandfather you were. We would not be who we are without you.

All the family members and friends who wrote to me after hearing the news of your passing remember your love of life, your generosity, your sense of humor, your commitment to family, and your special connection to children.

I want to say thank you to Ruth, for the love and attention she gave you. Ruth was a עזר כנגדו, a support at your side, and a אשת חיל, a woman of valor, who accompanied and supported you during your marriage and in your final moments.

Papa, people called you Sam. Your Hebrew name is Shlomo. At Ethan’s bar mitzvah, whose second name is Shlomo, you quoted the Book of Ecclesiastes (Kohelet) attributed to King Solomon. Ethan’s parsha is “Yitro,” which is this week’s parsha.

The book of Kohelet has been canonized even though it is confusing because of its contradictions and its harsh words about life. But it is a book that reminds us of the obvious: “There is a time for everything under heaven … A time to be born, and a time to die… A time to weep, and a time to laugh… A time for war, and a time for peace.” Today we weep, but we shall laugh again, as you made us laugh with your good jokes – except for the ones that started in French and ended in Arabic, and which we didn’t understand.

Kohelet is also the lesson of the old wise man who has seen it all. Shlomo concludes his complicated book with a simple message: “In the end, and after having said everything, fear God and keep his commandments, for that is what man is all about.”

The common sense of Shlomo. The common sense that was yours.

Rest in peace, Papa. Your final resting place is in the Land of Israel, surrounded by people who love and admire you, by grandchildren who adore you and who fill us with pride. This is the ultimate reward for the righteous man you were.

---

LETTER FROM MARLENE, GAILLE, STEPHANIE, AND ALEXIA LATORTUE:

Everyone gathered today to celebrate the beautiful life of Sam Mrejen may not know that in addition to family in Morocco, France and Israel, Sam also has a Haitian family that loves him, the Latortues.

At the heart of this family is an epic friendship that began with a long road trip of a Jewish student and a black student from Paris to Scandinavia. What started out as a practical and business arrangement – Sam had a car, Gerard Latortue had gas money, and both wanted an adventure – grew into a loyal, brotherly love.

Sam, or Sammy as Gerard often called him, had a twinkle in his eyes, enjoyed chatting with perfect strangers, showed love by teasing – the more he loved you, the more he would tease you – and had overflowing laughter and joie de vivre to share.

Well into their 80s, whenever they were together, including the last time they saw each other in London, something magical happened with Sam and Gerard. Their step had more spring, they stood taller, any worry lines disappeared from their faces…they were young, handsome, charming students once again. The jokes would flow, the stories would come fast, one after the other. Pure joy. Pure friendship.

But their friendship was not a light one. It was deep and real, and they were there for each other in their hardest moments as well as their happiest moments.  Gerard was by Sam’s side when he lost the mother of his three children. Sam flew to Haiti to give Gerard support when he first worked in government there. Gerard donned a kippah and was by Sam’s side here in Israel when Emmanuel got married. Sam flew to Florida to attend the wedding of Gerard’s first daughter to get married, Stephanie, and flew to Washington, DC for the baptism of Gerard’s grandchild, Gaielle’s son, Galen.

The bond between Sam and Gerard extended to their families. Everyone knew that to be in the inner circle of either man, meant accepting and growing to love the brother from another mother.

And it was easy for us, Marlene, Gerard’s wife, and his three daughters, Gaielle, Stephanie, and Alexia to love Sam. Sam is generosity embodied. Sam is abundant love. Sam is the warmth of his native Morocco.  Sam is a Papa Poule – his family was his everything. Sam is a mensch. Yes, he was well dressed and had a fine address in Paris, but there was not a drop of show or pretense to Sam. He often delighted in being slightly irreverent to the norms and expectations of society. He treated everyone with respect and love.

Sam, thank you for your love. We miss you and our hearts go out to your three children, and their children that you loved so fiercely, and to your dear Ruth who loved and cared for you until the end.

In this moment of sorrow, we are comforted by the vision of you, Sam, and Gerard, reunited in the heavens causing just a little bit of mischief.

Marlene, Gaielle, Stephanie and Alexia Latortue.

[Picture Credit: ELNET]

Israel is about to achieve total victory. If Europe’s three main powers wish to reap the benefits of this victory and to shape the future of the Middle East, they should trade legalistic formalism for political realism.

ELNET’s first and previous strategic dialogue between the “E3” countries (Britain, France, Germany) and Israel took place in October 2023, less than three weeks after the October 7 tragedy. We were still in shock. Our sons, including mine, were about to enter the Gaza Strip. The dialogue ended on October 26, two days before the IDF’s ground operation in Gaza.

Being in London during Israel’s darkest hour, I visited Churchill’s war room to uplift my mood. Paraphrasing the great Winston, I said at the dialogue that Israel “Must, and will, teach its enemies a lesson which they, and the world, will never forget.”

One year later, I am glad to say that this lesson has been taught, is still being taught, and will continue to be taught.

One year ago, Israel was humiliated, traumatized, and threatened by Iran’s multi-front ring of Jihadist aggression. Today, Israel has gained the upper hand. The Iranian ring has been dismantled, and Iran is the one on the defensive. Three of Iran’s proxies –Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Assad regime– have been either neutralized or eliminated. The Houthis in Yemen can still fire missiles at Israel and disrupt shipping in the Red Sea, but they are vulnerable to Israel’s airstrikes. As for Iran itself, its two massive strikes at Israel –in April and in October 2024– have been humiliating for the Islamic Republic. So has Israel’s devastating counterstrike on October 26.

The war that erupted on October 7 was, from day one, a war between Iran and Israel. Israel has not fully won that war yet, but it will. Never has the prospect of a large-scale military strike on Iran’s nuclear infrastructure been more feasible and more likely. The crumbling of the Iranian axis and the incoming Trump administration have turned “total victory” from a slogan to a palpable reality.

Because Israel is emerging as the Middle East’s greatest power with a fully supportive U.S. administration in the coming four years, it is time for E3 countries to rethink their Middle East policy. And this rethinking must take into account a paradox: The Russia-Iran axis has suffered a serious setback, but Russia is unlikely to be defeated in Ukraine.

To complete the defeat of Iran and to prevent the collapse of Ukraine, the E3 should replace legalistic formalism with political realism. This doesn’t mean Europe should abandon its principles. But it does mean that it is about time to realize that complex problems cannot be managed, let alone solved, with simplistic slogans.

There will be no new nuclear deal with Iran. Ukraine will not recover its 1991 borders. Establishing a 22^nd failed and autocratic Arab state in Israel’s heartland will not bring peace and stability to the Middle East. The Islamic republic can be defeated, but the Russian empire can only be contained.

If E3 countries wish to be constructive in the Middle East in the coming four years, they should fully cooperate with the U.S. and with Israel on the war against Iran’s axis of aggression, and they should keep Qatar’s malign influence in check. In Europe, E3 should help contain Russia not only by cooperating with the U.S. on reaching a sustainable compromise with Putin, but also by significantly increasing European defense spendings. The two are related, because NATO can only contain Russia from a position of strength.

Cooperation between Israel and Germany is a case in point: German-made submarines help Israel deter Iran, and Israeli-made anti-missiles systems help Germany deter Russia.

Finally, E3 must be on the same page at the United Nations. This organization has long been hijacked by autocracies that abuse the letter and the spirit of international law against the free world. Democracies do a disservice to their own values by playing into the hands of this sham. Precisely because the free world has become a minority at the UN, the least it can do is to stick together on votes at the Security Council, at the General Assembly, and at the Human Rights Council. This should start with E3 countries.

The past year has brought important achievements and victories. But we must remain resolute, united, and clear-sighted. To quote Churchill again: “This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end.  But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.”

—

This text summarizes the author’s remarks at ELNET’s second E3-Israel strategic dialogue in Paris on 16 December 2024.

Photo Credit: ELNET

One year ago, ELNET held the 11^th strategic dialogue between Israel and Germany in Berlin. Back then, Israel was a month into its ground operation in Gaza, and the Ukrainian counter-offensive had reached a stalemate. The Israeli government was thought to be on a short lifeline, while the German government was considered stable. In the US, President Biden had expanded his Senate majority in the midterms, and Donald Trump was indicted. One year later, the situation has not only changed; it has been turned on its head.

Israel has mostly defeated Hamas and Hezbollah. It has thwarted Iran’s missiles attacks and destroyed strategic targets on Iranian territory. The Israeli government is expected to last until the Fall of 2026. The upcoming snap election in Germany is likely to produce a different coalition. The incoming US administration is committed to the defeat of Iran and to normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia. In other words, the year 2025 could potentially be a turning point in the wars fought simultaneously in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East.

In those two wars, the special relationship between Germany and Israel is not only mutually beneficial. It is also an asset to the free world. The military partnership between Germany and Israel makes a major contribution to our common resistance to the Russia-Iran axis. Not only has Germany rejected demands to end military supplies to Israel. It has also held its ground –a moral ground– at the ICJ, at the ICC, and at the UN. It has reminded the world, with courage and determination, that Israel’s security is part of its Staatsräson.

But the tragedies of the past are not, and should not, be the only reason for Israel’s special place in Germany’s Staatsräson. This special place is also the outcome of shared values and of common interests. After all, Staatsräson is a German adaptation of the French raison d’État and of the Italian Ragion di Stato. Henry Kissinger writes in his magnum opus Diplomacy that raison d’État is to French what Realpolitik is to German. In which case there is no need for the word Staatsräson. But the point is that there is no shortage of words in European languages to talk about national interest.

With the war in Ukraine, the Zeitenwende, and the global coalition between Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea, there is also no shortage of awareness about the fact that our free societies are threatened once again. But awareness is not enough. The free world must be resilient, and it must be united at the UN, where democracies and law-abiding nations are a minority. In the Middle East, repeating hollow formulas like some type of religious incantation, will not bring peace. Realpolitik might. This means working with the new US administration instead of dismissing it. It means building alternatives to UNRWA. It means breaking apart the Iranian axis of aggression. And it means understanding that Israeli society is not the same, and will never be the same, after October 7.

We end the Pessah Haggadah with the words “Next year in a rebuilt Jerusalem.” But since this 12^th Germany-Israel dialogue took place in Jerusalem, let us wish “Next year in Berlin.” Thankfully, this dialogue only meets in reunited capitals.

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This text summarizes the author’s concluding remarks at ELNET’s 12th strategic dialogue between Germany and Israel, held in Jerusalem on 20 November 2024.